Gerry Wagoner interviews Steve Wohlberg on the nation of Israel, Hamas, antisemitism, and the biblical truths regarding spiritual Israel.
Steve, I understand you have a Jewish heritage.
Of sorts. Yes, “Wohlberg” is a Jewish name (from Germany), one of my dad’s relatives was a Rabbi, and my brother received his bar-mitzvah when he turned 12. “Do you want a bar-mitzvah?” my dad casually asked me, “I have nothing to urge.” “No thanks,” I replied, after brief consideration, and that was that. My family was very secular. We didn’t pray, read the Bible, or go to the synagogue.
What did being Jewish mean to you as a young boy?
Not much. We sometimes met with Jewish neighbors for Passover seders, ate some Jewish food, and we celebrated both Hanukkah and Christmas, but it was all just a cultural thing. There was no spirituality of any kind in my home.
I read your book, Exploding the Israel Deception, in 1997. It was very helpful to me in understanding the distinction between literal and spiritual Israel. Have you added anything to that topic since then?
That book has now been republished as False Prophecies about Israel, Babylon, and Armageddon, but it is essentially the same book. Amazingly, a few years ago a group of evangelical pastors were surveyed and asked to list the top ten books that influenced them. As I read the results, they listed books like Left Behind and The Purpose Driven Life. And lo, in that list was also Exploding the Israel Deception!
Much of professed Christendom sees national Israel as the epicenter of end-time prophecies. Are Adventists alone in our understanding that true Israel is a spiritual Israel, rather than the modern state of Israel?
We aren’t entirely alone, but nearly so. Our understanding of Daniel and Revelation goes far beyond those few who do see spiritual Israel as the heirs of the ancient promises made to Abraham and his seed.
What New Testament verses support your view that Abraham is also the father of spiritual Israel--those among Jews and non-Jews who individually choose to be governed by God?
Let’s start with John the Baptist. When many Pharisees and Sadducees—who were physical descendants of Abraham and thought they were thus automatically under God’s favor—came to John’s baptism, he thundered, “Think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham as our father: for I say to you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children to Abraham. And now also the axe is laid to the root of the trees: therefore every tree which brings not forth good fruit is cut down, and cast into the fire” (Matt. 3:9,10). Thus, to John, physical lineage back to Abraham meant nothing. Instead, the key issue is having a spiritual connection with God and bringing forth godly fruit. Those who don’t are doomed to the lake of fire. Echoing John, Jesus told some Jews, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham” (John 8:39). Echoing both John and Jesus, Paul wrote: “Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham” (Gal. 3:7).
I understand that Jesuit counter-reformation scholars in the 1500s developed the system of Futurism to confuse Protestants who at that time were rightly and boldly identifying the Roman Church System as the Little Horn of Daniel 7:8, the Great Apostasy of 2 Thessalonians 2:3,4, and the Harlot Mother of Revelation 17. Their evil purpose was to deflect attention from the Roman Church. Is that correct?
Indeed, it was. At first, Protestants rejected the Jesuit theory of placing the Antichrist in the distant future, for they knew through diligent Bible study and firsthand experience that the Roman Church was the biblical Antichrist making “war against the saints” (Dan. 7:21, Rev. 13:7) right in front of them. But as time went on, Jesuit Futurism slowly replaced Protestant Historicism as a dominant eschatology. Our Protestant forefathers would roll over in their graves if they could wake up and see what is now being taught today by those who are supposedly their spiritual descendants.
Is Futurism the main prophetic competitor of earlier Protestant Historicist about end-time events, or are there others?
Futurism is the main view, although Preterism has become a smaller contender. Rather than detecting the Romish Apostasy as the biblical Antichrist (the Protestant Historicist view), or thinking the Antichrist will be one super-bad guy who shows up after the Rapture (Jesuit Futurism), Preterism (which also came from Jesuits) sees the primary Antichrist as one man who lived in the first century, usually Nero. But this view isn’t as popular as Futurism which, through books like The Late Great Planet Earth and Left Behind, has now gone mainstream.
Did Futurism take some heat off the Roman church system?
No doubt, for that was its purpose. It has also become incredibly effective, which is why few Protestants today still think of the Roman Church as the great “Antichrist” of prophecy. Instead, they often now see the Roman Church as an ally in their fight against abortion and other evils.
Why are so many Christians today fascinated with national Israel?
One reason is because they have accepted the false theory that the physical state of Israel is still “the apple of God’s eye,” and that end-time prophecies revolve around earthly Jerusalem. Shortly after the October 7 attack when Hamas terrorists unexpectedly and brutally murdered nearly 1300 Israelis and took over 200 hostages, myriads of prophecy-minded Christians quickly took to social media to espouse false prophecies. “Watch Jerusalem,” said Pastor Greg Laurie before thousands, “It’s the center of the end-times.” This misguided reaction from so many evangelicals is what prompted White Horse Media to quickly produce our own TV and YouTube programs (see Israel Myths Part 1 and Israel Myths Part 2) clarifying biblical truth. God also led White Horse Media, Remnant Publications, Project Steps to Christ, and Amazing Facts to partner together to hopefully print 1 million copies of False Prophecies about Israel, Babylon, and Armageddon, to be distributed soon throughout America through Facebook advertising. To learn more about this exciting project, visit TheTrueIsraelProject.com.
Can Jews be saved apart from Jesus the Christ?
I’ll answer that with a Bible verse. Peter, a Jewish believer in Jesus, proclaimed: “Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven [besides the name of Jesus Christ] given among men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12).
There is no salvation in being a member of literal (or national) Israel, likewise there is no salvation in being anti-Semitic, right?
Right. True followers of Jesus aren’t anti-Semitic. They don’t hate Jews, Palestinians, Arabs, Muslims, blacks, whites, Asians, Hispanics, native Americans, Republicans, Democrats, Catholics, Trinitarians, Anti-Trinitarians, Conference employees, self-supporting workers, etc. etc. When Jesus walked this earth, He loved everyone—Jews, Pharisees, Sadducees, Romans, Samaritans, tax collectors, and even Prostitutes. He is calling us to follow His example. This doesn’t mean we shouldn’t discern right from wrong, or not stand up for truth, but it does mean that if we don’t truly love others, no matter what we profess, this warning from John the Baptist applies,
“And now also the axe is laid to the root of the trees: therefore every tree which brings not forth good fruit is cut down, and cast into the fire” (Matt. 3:10).
Some people regard Jews as evil people, responsible for most of the world’s ills. Where do such bigoted views come from?
To be blunt, from the devil. It’s true that, as a group, the Jewish Sanhedrin was responsible for pressuring Pilate to put Jesus to death; and yes, it was mostly a Jewish mob that cried, “His blood be on us, and on our children” (Matt. 27:25). But on the other hand, Jesus and His earthly parents were Jewish, most of the New Testament was written by Jews, and the New Testament has influenced humanity for good more than any other set of books ever written. Jews are people, like everyone else. Some are good, some are bad. Some (like Peter, James, John, and Paul) can be mightily used by God for good, whereas others (like Judas, Annas, and Caiaphas) can be used by Satan. It all depends on their individual choices. It is the same with each of us. But again, true followers of Jesus will rise above all hate and bigotry.
In the last two months there has been a wave of anti-Semitism coupled with pro-Hamas political activism. What is driving this?
Again, to be blunt, the devil is behind all hate, injustice, and rioting, wherever these appear. “He was a murderer from the beginning,” said Jesus in John 8:44.
In Romans 9-11, Paul seems to anticipate many Jews responding favorably to the Gospel. Is that a past, present, or future prediction?
I can’t give a full treatment of Romans 9-11 in this short interview, but here are a few key points:
“They are not all Israel, which are of Israel” (Romans 9:6). Paul described two Israels: one “after the flesh” (1 Cor. 10:18) and “the Israel of God” (Gal. 6:14-16) centered in the cross of Jesus Christ. Those who humble themselves and believe in Christ join the Israel of God.
God still has a remnant of Jews (comparable to those in Elijah’s day who didn’t bow to Baal) whom He is now saving by grace (Rom. 11:1-5).
Unbelieving Jews have been “cut off” (Rom. 11:17). But if they discover Jesus as their own Messiah, repent of their sins, and believe, they “shall be grafted [back] in” to their own olive tree (Rom. 11:22,23). I understand the verse, “And so all Israel will be saved” (Rom. 11:26) to apply to both believing Jews and Gentiles who, by God’s grace, become united in Jesus Christ (see Gal. 3:29). EGW wrote that as we near the end, many Jews will become believers in Jesus, like Paul. I pray so.
What can we learn from Jewish people?
We can learn about how God can take small, weak people (like Hebrew slaves in Egypt, David, Peter, and John), and do great things with them. We also learn that if we walk away from great light and turn to idols, unless we repent, nothing can save us from destruction (remember Assyrian, Babylonian, and Roman armies). From the best of them, we can also learn to supremely reverence the Word of God and take it seriously.
What can they learn from us?
Looking at Adventists, Jews can remember how they used to be “The People of the Book,” and real Sabbath-keepers, who longed for their coming of their Messiah. Unfortunately, most Jews today have no clue that this is their God-given heritage. Like no other people on earth, Seventh-day Adventists can teach Jews what it really means to be a true Israelite.
Any final thoughts?
Yes. Contrary to current global prophetic speculation, the true Center of the book of Revelation isn’t the physical state of Israel or earthly Jerusalem, but Jesus Christ, His people, and His “New Jerusalem” that will “come down from God out of heaven” (Revelation 21:2). Just as the battle in the book of Daniel was between literal Babylon and earthly Jerusalem (see Daniel 1), even so in the book of Revelation is the real end-time battle between the false church of Mystery Babylon and the true Israel of God centered in Christ which “keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus” (Revelation 14:12).
The last few verses of Daniel 11 shed additional light about the final showdown. Daniel 7 reveals the little horn’s war on “the saints” during the 1260 years. In a parallel prophecy, Revelation 11:2 says, “and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.” Thus “the saints” are also spiritually called “the holy city.” As the last act of the drama, Daniel 11:45 describes “the King of the north” (the papacy revived) planting his palace (for a final assault) between the seas and “the glorious holy mountain” (where “the holy city” made up of God’s loyal remnant “saints” abide); but then he comes “to his end” because our Great Prince Michael rises to defend and deliver His saints (Daniel 12:1). Thus, the final verses of Daniel 11 point, not to earthly Jerusalem or unbelieving Jews, but to Satan’s final campaign against God’s faithful Remnant people represented as His “holy city” huddled on His “glorious holy mountain,” which is Mt. Sion, where the 144,000 stand with the Lamb (see Revelation 14:1).
As we witness the tragic war between Israel and Hamas, we should never forget that “present truth” is still the Three Angels’ Messages designed to develop “the Israel of God” who will be protected and transported to the New Jerusalem when our Savior returns to destroy global Babylon (centered in Rome), the false prophet (with its false, Jesuit-inspired prophecies of the end-times) and the beast at Armageddon (see Revelation 16:13-21; 19:19, 20).
In these momentous times, let’s fix our eyes on Jesus and keep our heads straight about Israel and Bible prophecy.
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Steve Wohlberg is the Speaker/Director of White Horse Media. He is excited about being with God someday, loves his family, and longs to help others prepare for Christ’s soon return. He also hosts two online courses, Sprouting with Steve and Grow Your Money with God.